Episode 7: Can Christians be Demonized?
Season 1 · Episode 7
Can Christians be Demonized?
Show Notes
Amy and Justin Howard tackle one of the most common and uncomfortable questions in their series on the supernatural: can a believer actually have a demon? With warmth, humor, and a healthy dose of Christmas-tree deliverance stories, they walk through what Scripture says about demonic influence in a believer's life, why the modern Western church tends to either dismiss or sensationalize the demonic, and how the earliest Christians treated deliverance as a normal part of preparing someone for baptism. Along the way they reframe the tired "possession versus oppression" debate as a spectrum of compromised agency, and they call listeners to see freedom as an ongoing journey best walked together in the body of Christ. This is a conversation about hope, healing, and the everyday work of the kingdom breaking in.
In This Episode
- The short answer is yes: believers can still be afflicted by demons the same way they can still sin or get sick, because we are not yet living in our resurrected bodies.
- Two obstacles cloud the conversation: outright disbelief in the demonic (like the Sadducees) and, when it does surface, hyper-sensationalizing it as something rare and horrifying from the movies.
- Scriptures often used to say Christians can't have a demon, like 1 John 5, actually sit alongside warnings to keep from idols, flee sin, and pray daily for deliverance from evil.
- Sin, trauma, generational patterns, and occult activity can become 'hooks' the enemy uses to yank us around, so freedom is an ongoing process of sanctification, not a one-time salvation prayer.
- For its first 300 years the church assigned new believers a mentor and an exorcist, spending two to three years cleansing and forming them through the Way (Ten Commandments), the Truth (Apostles' Creed), and the Life (Lord's Prayer) before baptism.
- Rather than a rigid 'possession versus oppression' line, the Howards suggest a spectrum of agency, asking how much territory the enemy holds in a person and how compromised their ability to say no has become.
- Deliverance is normal Christianity and part of the disciples' original commission alongside healing and preaching, and it is meant to be practiced in loving community, not alone.
Going Deeper — Discussion Questions
- Before this episode, where did you land on the question 'can Christians have a demon?' Did anything you heard challenge or reshape your assumptions?
- The Howards describe two extremes: dismissing the demonic entirely or sensationalizing it. Which pull do you feel more strongly, and why?
- How does thinking of sin as 'batting for the wrong team' or leaving 'an open wound' change the way you understand ongoing temptation in your own life?
- The early church spent two to three years cleansing and forming new believers before baptism. What might our discipleship gain if we recovered some of that patience and intentionality today?
- Justin says trauma at its core can feel 'atheistic' because it seems like God wasn't there. Where have you seen unhealed wounds become 'traction' the enemy plays off of, in yourself or others?
- The episode reframes possession and oppression as a 'spectrum of agency.' How does focusing on compromised agency rather than labels affect how you'd walk with a struggling friend?
- Jesus sent his disciples to drive out demons, heal the sick, and preach the kingdom. What would it look like for you to take a small, curious step toward learning this kind of ministry in community?
Full Transcript
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0:03Introduction
Welcome to Between Heaven and Earth. We're your hosts, Justin and Amy Howard. And together, we lead a mission agency right here in beautiful New England. We are thrilled that you've joined us. In each episode, we'll explore what it means to follow Jesus by bringing heaven and earth together in your family and community. Our goal is to empower you to thrive in the collision of kingdoms and courageously join with Jesus in his great project of healing and restoration. This podcast is brought to you by Encounter Culture Mission Collaborative, dedicated to working with ordinary followers of Jesus to mend, make, and multiply disciples right where they are. Let's dive in. Welcome back, friends.
We are so glad that you joined us yet again. And today we are going to dive into a hot topic. And this is a part of the series. The series is basically hitting on some common questions, some common pushbacks that we often hear when it comes to healing prayer, deliverance prayer, the demonic, supernatural stuff. And we've been talking about in this series, just basically giving everyone a broad overview of a biblical theology of what it means to be priests and kings, and God's intended desire for redemption and for re-creation, the kingdom of God coming to earth, heaven and earth becoming one. And now we get to talk about: can Christians have a demon? Yeah, I get asked this all the time.
It's a great question. Or many demons. Or multiple demons. Yes, we call them the critters. The critters. Can Christians have critters? Can we have a critter? Yeah, no, that's— I like it, it's less intimidating, you know, a critter. Yeah, I think it's so easy to just feel dirty and scared if you think you're being influenced by something in the supernatural. Yeah, yeah. Well, okay, so let's just start. Let's just go for it. Let's go for it like a midwinter project in the house. You mean one that's gonna last like till next winter? Nope, this one's gonna have to be done in 40 minutes. Wow, I feel like there's some passive aggression here. On a larger stage. That's true.
Speaking of critters, I have to retrieve a critter from the SPCA today because one of our critters left. Well, I feel like we're blurring lines now. This isn't a delivery. Yeah, no, no, we're talking about deliverance. We're not talking about the cat. We did some exorcism and we can't find the demon. Yeah, no. She's at the SPCA. Anyway, we're gonna have to go pick her up today. Hopefully she's still there. She's not there. She was looking for a male friend, I think. She was, yes. I feel very sad. I saw her on Facebook and I was like, that's my cat. Anyway, okay, so we're gonna cover some really great topics today. So can Christians have a demon?
What does the Bible say about demonic influence? Yeah. In a believer's life, in the church. In the church. And after Easter, what was the practice of the earliest Christians regarding deliverance? Yeah, these are really helpful, orienting kind of questions. Yeah, yeah, and then we're going to answer the question: possession versus oppression. Yeah, I don't think— I don't know if we're gonna answer it. I think we're gonna— we're just gonna set it loose into the environment and see what happens. Yeah, yeah, great, great. And like always, we want your feedback. If you want to argue a point or if you have information, please post and comment, because we want this to be a live discussion.
And as always, like, share, leave a review of the podcast. We want this to go far and wide. It is going far and wide. We've got people in Croatia listening. We have people in Canada. That's far and wide, Canada. We've got folks from all over the US. So we welcome your feedback and reviews. Okay, so Amy, can Christians have a demon? I think that the first thing we need to answer, the first question we actually need to answer, is what does it mean to have a demon? Okay. So, like, as a pet. Yeah. Or on a string, like a balloon. Or on a balloon. Or like in C.S. Lewis's The Great Divorce. The little guy on the shoulder. Yeah, yeah. So is it possible for Christians to have a demon?
5:02Why We Miss the Demonic
So what does it mean to have a demon? Well, I think there are two problems when we're wrapping our arms around this conversation. There are two major problems that I run into, and it may not be just a New England problem. Actually, I don't think it's a New England problem. I think this stretches all the way back, at least to Jesus' time. Two problems when we're coming to this question, when we want to begin to wrap our arms around this question. The first one, the first problem, in the West, in New England, and in Jesus' day, was a disbelief in the demonic in general. So this sort of general idea that, well, it's just the stuff of childhood nightmares and this isn't real.
It's for the unintelligent. Yeah. And there's a perfectly reasonable explanation for most of this stuff, unless you're watching some, you know, ghost hunters thing on TV or something like that. Like, most of the stuff has been explained away, and since the Enlightenment, we've all really understood that if you pull back the curtain on the unseen realm, there's really nothing there. And that's not a new— that's not a new feeling. I think people blame that on the Enlightenment, but the Sadducees during Jesus' day did not believe in angels and demons or the resurrection. Right. And the Sadducees and the Pharisees, these were teachers of the law.
They were the primary sort of governance, religious governors and teachers in early Judaism. Yeah, you can read in the first century. In Acts 23, Acts 23:8, we're told the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection and there are neither angels nor spirits. Now, the Pharisees believed in those things. They believed that there were demons, and they had a very vibrant sort of exorcistic understanding about how Jesus, how God, how Yahweh wanted to interact and free his people from the powers. But the Sadducees, they were the educated elite. They were wealthy.
They had access to information, and they were like, yep, you peel back the curtain between the seen and the unseen realm and there's nothing there. There is no unseen realm. And there's not a— and there's no resurrection. Or at least maybe there's God, but there's nothing else. Yeah. I don't want to be a Sadducee. I hate that song. I don't want to be a Sadducee, 'cause they're so sad, you see. I just want to be a sheep. Yeah, I don't want that. Stop. Yeah, I'm sorry. Can we cut that? But okay. Yeah. No, because it's— it's pertinent to the conversation. It is pertinent for you to remember the Sadducees were very sad, you see, because they didn't believe in the resurrection.
That's right. But also they were not effective deliverance ministers because they didn't even have a folder to put deliverance ministry in. They didn't think it was important. So I would say that's problem number one: if this exists, maybe it's somewhere else in the world, but it's probably not there. It's probably not a problem. And you get the flip side of that. If it does show up, it's horrifying. I mean, this is like the worst of all possible worlds, that someone is afflicted with the demonic. You just— you can't even— I mean, it's horrifying. It's shameful. It's— it's fascinating.
It's like, oh my gosh, we're gonna be telling that story for the next 30 years about the one time that we thought someone might have had a demon. So because it's so rare, or because we have a lot of unbelief, we either write it off entirely or we sensationalize it. And we think that the Exorcist movie is, like, the definitive information out there on demons and exorcism. Right. So like I said, the flip side of this is sensationalizing it. So it's either it's not there at all, or we just don't know much about the deliverance ministry of Jesus. We're like, oh, it's probably out there somewhere, but I'm in a— I'm in a church. I'm a believer. This has very little to do with me.
I don't see this as a common problem. And so when it does show up, it's hyper-sensationalized. Right. So I mean, for those of you who are listening, I just encourage you to ask yourself the question: when— when's the last time you heard a sermon on deliverance, or on the deliverance ministry of Jesus, or you got— as a deliverer, or even the word exorcism, yeah, you know, to call out that this is, you know, to— to exorcise someone or a demon out of someone. So— so the— so you were just talking about the— the things that keep us from answering this question. Yeah, I did. I backed up pretty far.
You backed up pretty far, but you know, so we still haven't gotten to the, you know, can Christians have a demon. So we— we're talking about why is it upsetting for us to even conceive of this? Yeah, theologically, or why don't we ever run into it, because we've just decided it's not a problem. It's not a problem. Right. You know, it's not a problem because it doesn't look like the movies. Right. You know, like, when's the last time you saw someone speaking in Latin and, and, you know, projectile vomiting. Yeah. Well, well, depends on the kind of circles you're running in, but true. That's very true. Okay. So, so the short answer is yes. Yes.
10:17Can Believers Be Demonized?
People who believe and who have given their lives to the lordship of Jesus can still be afflicted and have demons, the same way that they can still sin, the same way they can still get sick. Same way that their bodies can still experience the effects of sickness. Because their bodies are not fully— because we're not living in the resurrection. We're not living in our resurrected bodies. We're not— we're still in certain ways porous to the influences of death and the demonic. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. Satan hasn't been bound yet. Well, we'll get to that. Yeah. Up for— up for great theological conversation. Right.
And, you know, like I said, we welcome all kinds of questions and pushbacks, because we want to— we want to get to the bottom of this. Yeah. Because we want to see people set free. Yeah. If you are an armchair theologian where this is concerned, though, I would really challenge you to kind of be up close and personal to where deliverance ministry may or may not be happening, where it's happening, as your— as you're exercising curiosity. As you're saying, gosh, I disagree. I— but I— but I want to understand, or I want to wade into the conversation. But I suppose that's— that's down in our action plan. Yeah. But as you're thinking about, man, this is a really foreign, foreign realm to me.
Is that— is that— is it foreign because you lack experience, or is it foreign because you genuinely believe there isn't experience to be had? Yeah. Yeah, no, that's good. So, okay, so can Christians have a demon? Yes. What does the Bible say about Satan's influence over a believer? Yeah, I think you have a lot of passages that are kind of taken out of context that Christians sort of throw around to say, no, you can't have a demon, because— here's this passage. I would say, like, maybe 1 John 5. We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the one who was born of God keeps them safe, and the evil one cannot harm them. We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one. We also know that the Son of God has come and given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true by being in his Son Jesus Christ.
He is the true God and eternal life. Dear children, keep yourselves from idols. Oh, amazing way to end the letter. That's amazing. Why would you have to keep yourselves from— you know, I've always read that, like, well, that's kind of a weird addendum. It just seems like it's a completely different thing that he's talking about, unless John is seriously concerned with the battle between light and dark, and the influence of the powers, the powers of darkness over Christians who have been given the Spirit of God, bearing witness and courage and strength to resist the devil, but who also are having this ongoing— like, wow, it's very possible to get yourself in some hot water. It's possible to have a demon, and so John pastorally— he does— I think it's fascinating that he ends with how to stay out of trouble, right?
Okay, okay, so there are some serious little caveats in this John passage. So I mean, the big one that gets cited is the one who is born of God keeps them safe, and the evil one cannot harm them. That's the one that we get a lot of. But there are some caveats in this passage, not sinning being a primary one. Right, so John is saying, if you're filled with the Spirit of God, you're not gonna be comfortable continuing to sin. But it looks like— I mean, he finishes this conversation with, don't— keep yourself from idols. It's possible to sin, and then you need to repent and believe that there's an advocate speaking for you who can bring you home. Who can bring you home?
Yeah, and a body— a body of believers who can pray for you. That's right, if you're finding yourself in that place. And I think we think of sin as, I don't know, almost like it's just about having a black mark against you before God, rather than— you're batting for the wrong team. Like, you're exposing yourself to the kingdom of darkness. You know, when we partner with sin, it's like— it's like having an open wound in our body.
We're actually setting ourselves up for more warfare, for more trouble, for more infection— for more infection, for more influence of the demonic, right? Right, now, I mean, I think that Paul actually talks about this too, in 1 Corinthians, when he says, you know, is it not— you know, as we take communion, is it not a participation in the Lord's body and the Lord's blood? Well, he was just talking about sitting at the table of demons and participating in the demonic feast. Like, is that not a participation? Right, if you go— if you go to places, if you're worshiping and feasting there, or if you're participating, you're opening yourself up for the demonic to traffic in your life.
15:27Jesus and the Ministry of Deliverance
Yeah. Yeah, and we'll— we'll sort of tease that out a little bit as we go. So Jesus in his ministry contained a lot of stories and— and teaching surrounding deliverance or exorcism, whichever language you prefer to use. I think we tend to think just about, like, the Mark 5 man among the tombs, you know. He's— he's not— he's not Jewish, he— or probably— he's living among the tombs. He's clearly demonized, and that's kind of our signature. Like, well, he was outside of the Jewish community, and he needed exorcism, right? But Jesus' primary ministry was amongst the people of God. Yeah, among the Jews. He was sent to the Jew first.
Right, and we have incidents like Luke 4:33, where a demonized man screams at Jesus in a synagogue. So this guy's sitting in church in a place where, you know, your reputation matters, you're there with your whole community, and he has so little agency in that moment that the demonic shouts through him at Jesus. I mean, he's sitting in church. He's not an unbeliever, you know, out there somewhere. He's interacting. He's in church with Jesus. That's sobering. He's in church with Jesus, and he has little enough agency in that moment that the demonic is able to shout through him. Jesus also talks about the potential return of spirits where they've been cast out.
So it's like Luke 11:24 through 26, right? Jesus talks about, yeah, you can drive out these demonic things, and they're going to try to come back, and they may. He says it's not impossible to get reinfected. It is possible. Right, it's possible. And that also gives us the sense that spiritual forces or demons aren't completely destroyed by Jesus, but they're able to be relocated. So when you drive a demon out of somebody, it goes somewhere else. That's why we tell them to go to the feet of Jesus, for him to deal with them. For them— for him to deal with them, that's right, because they're an actual thing. It's not just like a vapor that disperses into the air. They're creatures.
Oftentimes, when we do prayer ministry in our home— when we have some wild stories about this, but you want to tell one? I do— kind of— go for it. So one time we were doing this prayer ministry with this ministry couple, and they were in a real rough place. And you don't need to give any more details than that. They were in a rough place. It was pretty bad. We've been in a rough place before. Yes, we have. So we say that without throwing any judgment at all. Listen, if you're in ministry, you're going to have seasons where you are in a rough place. Anyway, that's why Jesus says you need him to wash your feet as you go. Yeah, you need him to wash you.
If you're walking, your feet are going to get dirty. Yeah. So the Lord was doing some washing. Yeah. This couple were getting set free. You had the husband in another room. I had the husband in another room. I was ministering to him. You were praying for the wife in the living room, and it was Advent. And so our Christmas tree is up, and it's very beautiful. And if you know me, I absolutely love my Christmas tree. You are. You are a— I am a Christmas tree connoisseur. I really am. It must look a certain way. It cannot be rotund. It needs to be— yeah, you have a specific dimensional look that you like. Yeah, yes, I do. And I like it to be decorated in a certain way.
And this horrible ribbon. Amy doesn't like my ribbon idea. I don't like to babysit the ribbons, because they get knocked down. Okay. And it makes it look very elegant and beautiful. They do look nice. I'm not arguing about it. I don't like spending money to buy ribbons, even though they're like $5, because I'm so Scottish. And frugal. Some of our listeners may be Scottish. Well, now you've— now you have heard my discriminatory bent towards Scotsmen. Woman. Scotsman. Sorry. So anyway, so you're ministering to her. The problem is, we're actually proud of it. So if there are Scottish people listening, and they actually do— you're proud of being—
If you are in alignment with that very casual trope, you're actually proud of it. You weren't insulted at all. Right. Just like I'm an Enneagram Eight, and I am not insulted by the fact that I'm an Enneagram Eight. Even when people say you're such an Eight, and I'm like, darn right. Right. Anyway, so you're ministering to the woman, and it's a pretty profound ministry experience. She gets delivered, right? Yep. Yeah. And we say— like a creature. Like a creature. Goes. And how did you know there was a creature that went? You know, when you've been doing deliverance ministry for a long time, you sort of recognize— I think freedom happens all the time and we're not even aware.
So that's not always a helpful question. You know, people get— we get set free all the time of demonic stuff, and there's not necessarily a manifestation. I actually think the more love that's around and the more agency a person is experiencing in any given moment, the lower the amount of manifestation is. But I think there was some physical— it's kind of— a physical manifestation of her being set free. Yeah. So anyway, we decide, you know, our kids are all upstairs sleeping. We decide, you know, let's cleanse the house, because there have been times where we haven't and everyone will have nightmares that night. The kids will wake up cranky.
Oh, we've had— there's just, you know, the kids break out— doors shut on their own. All sorts of weird stuff. Yeah. All sorts of weird stuff. So we decided we were cleansing the house. So we made some holy water. Boy, that's— this conversation for another— you know, I can't wait to have that conversation, because it's very biblical. Stay tuned. But we did it. So just know, as you're— so just do it. You know, in the great tradition of the church, we sanctified water, and we— water has always been used for cleansing. I just feel like we need to throw that out there. And judgment. Yeah. And so we're, you know— in the Bible.
Sprinkling it about the house, and— I'm just telling anything that had stuck around to go to the feet of Jesus. Right. So I started to shake it in the living room, and I was 15 feet away from my tree, and I shook it toward the tree, just little sprinkles— from your hand. From my hand, and the tree lights went out. And I was very upset, because I knew that whatever was in that living room that was just exorcised from this woman had left my house but had taken my Christmas tree lights with it. That's why I went over to the window. Just, like, kicked you on the way out. Like, don't let the door hit you on the way out.
I ran over to the window and I said, "You will restore to me what you took from me." Just give me back my lights, in the name of Jesus. And the lights went back on. Except for one strand. That was very odd. Anyway, I don't know why I didn't get the rest of it back, but anyway, my tree— my tree was beautiful through the rest of it. Unsolved mysteries. Yeah, unsolved mysteries. But anyway, so I don't know how we got onto that, other than— it is important to tell them to go to the feet of Jesus for him to deal with as he wills. Right, and Jesus— because they are real entities.
Right, and Jesus teaches this when he's teaching about deliverance. He's teaching about the kingdom of God overthrowing the dominion of Satan, which for humans looks like exorcism and deliverance ministry. He says, "You send them out and they're gonna wanna come back." They want to. They go through arid— they roam through arid places. Right, so there's this idea in the New Testament that while ultimate victory is assured for the believer, the present age is one of conflict, where the kingdom of God has broken into this present age through the work of Jesus, but freedom is not static. Just like sin and sickness are not static.
23:39Sanctification and Praying for Freedom
When you get saved, you are not all of a sudden entirely sanctified. Right. You've actually still got a lot of the old stuff, the old patterns, the old ways of thinking, the old just stuff rattling around, right? And we would traditionally call your journey of discipleship sanctification. Right. You are practicing and praying in a way that you want to— you want to be filled, not just in your consent, in your mind, by the revelation that Jesus is God and he came to save you from your sins. But you actually want to— you want all of the rooms of your house to be filled with the knowledge of God, to be cleaned out and filled with revelation. Okay.
So Jesus himself teaches the disciples for themselves to pray for deliverance from evil. That's the Lord's Prayer, right? Right. So he said, when they ask him, how should we pray? He lists this as something important to do. He's not listing it as something important to do because it's not a problem. Like, as a— "oh, deliver us" just means don't sin anymore. I mean, I would say that is more along the lines of "lead us not into temptation." But he also says "deliver us from evil"— set us free. Yes. Set us free from evil. Right.
So we're praying in an ongoing way that we would be set free from the influence of evil, from demonic things, from ourselves and from the demonic. And then in the upper room discourse, Jesus actually prays that his disciples would be protected from the evil one. John 17. That's right. He prays that they would be protected. Why does he pray that they would be protected? Because he knows that there's going to be an onslaught. And he knows it's possible that they could give way in different ways. And I think that we want to just create categories of saved, not saved. Right.
And if you were saved or something, and you get attacked by the demonic and you say yes to it, and then it somehow has— it's attached itself to you, it's embedded itself in you, or it's afflicting you in some way, then that must mean you weren't saved to begin with. Or it means now you're reprobate. And this ongoing conversation in 1 John, in John 17, gives us this indication that this is not a static conversation, that we are actually growing up, that we're flexing and strengthening the muscle of our yes to the Lord and our no to the demonic. And this is about the kingdom of heaven. Yes to God's healing in our soul. Yeah.
And— and no to the generational ways of thinking, sin patterns, wounds that we have agreed with from childhood. Yeah. That are manifesting themselves in ways that hurt those around us or stymie relationship. Yeah. And we're talking about cultivating the yes to God. We're talking about saying yes to him, responding to revelation, responding to his movements in our life, responding to his love in our life. And so it is an ongoing deliverance. It's an ongoing— you're being— it's an ongoing, you know, coming out of Egypt. Yeah. I mean, have you come out of— of slavery to the evil one? Yes. But often what that means is now you have— now you have agency. Yeah. To say no to the demonic. Yeah.
And I just want to add in right here— I know we've said it before, but you can't just do this alone. You can't. I mean, it's not that— you know, I've been set free alone before, but— but the journey of freedom— the church as the priesthood of all believers is the gift to one another and the earth in this activity of cleansing. So this isn't just about, well, I have said yes to this, and now I'm so ashamed that I might have some bondage. I just need to learn all the right information and say all the right things, and then I'll be set free. You need to be loved by the body in the journey toward freedom. Right. I mean, you know, as much as I love Reformation theology because I'm Protestant—
Yeah. I think that we've done a great disservice to the church— I'm speaking as a, you know, as a— as a leader in the church— I think we've done a great disservice to the church when we have basically relegated the Christian life to a salvation prayer where we're like, and then just doing a good job. And then just doing a good job. Good to your coworkers. Yeah. That's right. We're just— okay, well, it was all, you know, it was all sort of, you know, done at the time of my conversion. Yeah. But that's not— that's not even— I mean, that's— that's just not true. Even when someone's— a baby's born, there's so much that they have to learn and so much that they have to do, so many muscles.
They have to flex so many— there's so much developmental stuff that needs to happen. Well said. Yeah. Hey listeners, are you ready to become fully alive? Life can feel overwhelming, and many of us struggle to feel fully alive. Perhaps you feel stuck in your marriage or career. You might be struggling with anxiety or depression, or you really want to take your relationship with God to the next level. The good news is that you don't have to go through it alone. OneLife Group is a distinctly Christian approach to professional, individual and couples counseling, as well as certified coaching for life, leadership, business, health and wellness.
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I think it's important too to— to talk about, you know, I mean, there are— there are demons. Well, we're— you know, cycling back a little bit, just cycling back a little bit. Just— just because, you know, I mean, I'm running into Christians who believe that, you know, we live in this millennial reign where Satan has been bound, that there are no demons out there, that there's no demonic influence since the resurrection and ascension, basically, in the gift of the Spirit.
And I don't— I don't know how— I don't know how you can see that in the New Testament, where Paul talks about the evil one, Satan being the god of this age, small g, or the passage that we just read in 1 John. And so there's a lot of airtime about Jesus having bound Satan. That's the amillennial view, an amillennial view. It's true on one hand, right? But— but— do you know what's fascinating to me? The— the— the sort of tenets of amillennialism emerged in the church at round about the same time as the significant decrease in practiced exorcism within the church. Why do you think that is?
31:34How the Church Lost Deliverance
Well, I mean, we've had some other conversations about it, you know, and I don't— and I think there are probably a lot more reasons than the ones I'm aware of. But like we've talked about before, I think as you saw the institutionalization of Christianity, and people are being baptized as infants and they're coming into the church, not having been previously catechized, and then you're also— it's just kind of cultural to be a Christian. It becomes less about— you know, this idea that— I mean, there's no persecution anymore. There's no— you know, you're not gonna— you're not gonna have to defend your faith.
So it costs you very little, and you can do— you can check the right boxes and be a, quote unquote, Christian. You can, you know, you can do those things, right? And I think in the middle of all that, you also saw, during that institutionalization period, the three and four hundreds of Christianity, you saw the consolidation of ministries into a professional class of priests. And I mean, I think that as you kind of reduced the number of people that were active in their various gifts— I think there are some people that are remarkably gifted in deliverance ministry, and that those— those gifts don't necessarily line up with the minority of people who are going to be professional clergy. So you've sort of consolidated a lot of those priestly activities into a professional class, right?
And if— and I mean, if the local priest is not also a gifted exorcist, so it's just probably gonna be more rare to begin with. And then if you— any expectation during this time went down. The early church expected that when people were baptized in water, they were gonna be filled with the Holy Spirit and come up out of the water, you know, evidencing gifts of this. They're gonna pray for the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
They expected the gifts of the Spirit to show up and be made manifest. I think there was a lower expectation when everyone was infant baptized that that was gonna happen. You know, you have a little eight-day-old baby— it's not gonna start, you know, healing people or praying in the Spirit or, you know, things of that nature, right? So I think there's just this major shift in expectation, and also during that time you saw a rise in— where it became really a cultural stamp. Yeah, it's like, okay, I am now, you know— I— I mean, and there's beautiful theology behind infant baptism.
There's beautiful theology behind baptism, but— but it became like, if you're a Roman, you're also a Christian, right? And, fascinatingly enough, along with the very beautiful rise in monasticism— so— so when the church became institutionalized, it became more decadent, more associated with power. Not all of the things were bad, but in general it was like, all right, well, everybody says they're Christian, but not everybody's necessarily living that way. And so these groups of people headed off into the wilderness to do solo or eventually community life, pursuing the holiness of God, and those communities had a vibrant imagination for deliverance. And we'll get to that in a minute, but what you also saw during that time was this rise of the— like the replacement of martyrdom with, like, monasticism. So— so you were like a white martyr, you were— you were giving up your life in community for a highly ascetic— and so the— the people that were recognized as, like, the wonder workers, or the really, really holy people who were still seeing deliverance ministry, were the ones whose lives were not normal people's lives.
They were the ones who were living in the caves. They were— they were the Christians who— who eventually developed monastic communities, and they had a vibrant sense for deliverance. John Cassian had— I mean, deliverance was part of Christian discipleship. I mean, his— his understanding of confession and deliverance is so exciting to me. But anyway, so I think you got all of those things kind of happening at the same time. So that when you try to understand the world and create a theology that encompassed— or an eschatology that encompassed— what you're seeing, even amillennialism, I think probably made sense for Augustine and his guys. I mean, I think that that probably just made a lot of sense.
Yeah, unfortunately. I mean, there are— I think a lot of things were coalescing in the, you know, fourth and fifth centuries that led to the demise of a lot of the— the signs and wonders, unless you were, you know, in Ireland, or, you know, the gospel— yeah, or in the desert. Yeah. In the Egyptian desert. Right. But as it became more and more— the power became consolidated and more institutional. Yeah. We just— yeah. And that's where theology is made too. Right. Because people are, you know— theology is written by real people having real experiences in their— and trying to make sense of the Scriptures through their current experience.
And if you've never seen exorcism, you have a very small imagination for exorcism. Right. But don't you think it's interesting that— I mean, for those passages mattering to you— theology really traditionally hasn't been written by people who are on the front lines of the kingdom. That is a really great point. Their theology is done by the folks in the, quote unquote, ivory tower. They're the people that are in institutions where they have the luxury, perhaps— or— and the resourcing and the resources to do a lot of the theologizing, especially once it became an institution. Yeah. We're becoming culturally acceptable. And the odds of you experiencing those kinds of things in ministry go down.
That's right. If you're a little more removed from the practical. That's right. I don't think even my experience in seminary was that the teachers that were, like, the professors that had, like, the most robust and profound understanding of— of Scripture, of theology, were people who had been in ministry, or who were— especially the missionaries. Oh my goodness. The professors that were missionaries. Yeah. Same here— had the ability to articulate theology in such a way that, like, it could not be liberalized. Like, you just— like, there— it couldn't just create a beautiful thought train. Right. It had to be real. Like, it mattered.
Like, I've— like, you've got to wonder if the reason why so many seminaries in the last 50 years are closing down is because so many of the folks that— that it drew were people that maybe weren't practicing that much. And a lot of the liberal theology that was coming out, you know— in the 19th century liberalism, in the 20th century— I mean, that was all— it was coming from people that didn't have experience of the kingdom breaking in. Yeah. Didn't see it, didn't have that kingdom theology. You and I, someday— someday we're going to sit down and write a really clear list of the information we learned in seminary versus the information we need in ministry. Oh boy. And see where the overlaps are.
Yeah. There's not a lot. There's not a ton of overlap. That's why I see just a lot of unsanctified mercy even coming from a lot of these institutions. Like, I mean, some— some thinkers that I love, that I've loved to listen to, who are now just sort of, like, going down this path, because they haven't ministered on the front lines and seen the destruction of sin or the beauty of seeing people set free. When you know the difference. Yeah. Absolutely. When you can call sin sin, you can get set free from it. That's right. And that's where the action is happening. That's where the breakthrough is taking place.
That's where actual regeneration is happening, is where you can actually name the stuff to be set free from and then apply the gospel practically to those things. You see the kingdom come. Yes. It's so exciting. Okay. Yeah. Let's circle back to deliverance. So— so— so I want to talk a little bit about, after Easter, what was the practice of the earliest Christians regarding deliverance? I want to talk a little bit about the early church. Yeah, I love this topic. This is one— I know you do. I want to hear you talk about— this is one thing that I— that was really profound for me when I— because I've been looking for the silver bullet for discipleship for a long time.
40:00The Early Church's Path to Baptism
And when I first started, I was going to seminary, and we had to read this book about— it was education in the ministry of the church. And the— I can't remember the name of the book, but anyway, the guy basically unearthed the reality that for the first 300 years, you took two to three years to be prepared for baptism. And you were assigned a mentor, who would teach you the faith. And then you were assigned an exorcist as well. Yeah, so there wasn't one clear kind of formation process for Christians, because Christians were popping up all over the place.
But we do have a collection of writings from the apostolic tradition— Hippolytus's Apostolic Tradition— that clearly indicates that there was a process of formation that happened before someone who was a new believer was baptized. So— so those people that were being prepared for Christian baptism, they already would have done what you and I would have called the sort of sinner's prayer. They would have believed that Jesus was who he says he was, and that— that that was true for them. But the early church had this broad category for a distance of time between that sort of belief. Like, yes, I think I want to follow Jesus. I'm moving in this direction.
I believe that Jesus is God, that he came in the flesh, that he died to save me from my sins, that he— I believe in the resurrection of the dead, all of those things. And then there was this season, at least in some schools in the very earliest church, of preparation— this time of preparation, where you were assigned an exorcist. The assumption was you were bringing in stuff from the world. And— we— I'm not— I'm not necessarily saying we need to do baptism one way or another way, but I am saying they had imagination for you still needing exorcism, even after you've said the sinner's prayer. Yeah, no, absolutely. I mean, I think that— I've even experienced that in our ministry, that— in my own life.
Yeah, well— that people say the sinner's prayer, and usually all that is indicating is, yeah, I'm curious about Jesus. I mean, I think that there's a real regenerative reality in that profession, perhaps— perhaps in that profession and belief. Absolutely. But the early church would have said, okay, yes, and let's count the cost now. Well, let's count the cost. And also, you're going to need the cleansing reality of the gospel to minister to different parts of you, to— to your story, to the idols that you've worshiped, to the— the ancestral stuff you're carrying, to the practices and the things that have made you susceptible and likely infiltrated by demonic stuff. Right.
So there were three things that they had to do. It was the way, the truth, and the life. And so the way was the Ten Commandments, the truth was the Apostles' Creed, and the life was the Lord's Prayer. And those three things they had to memorize, and those three things— basically they would dig into, you know, what does it look like to follow Jesus— the way, the truth, and the life— using the Ten Commandments, the Apostles' Creed, and the Lord's Prayer. And so that— that looked like learning about, what does it look like to take up my cross and follow Jesus? Because remember, they're in massive— there's persecution breaking out at various times.
And so they needed to know— they wanted to make sure that whoever was signing up for this Jesus thing wasn't going to— they weren't going to deny their faith. They were really counting the cost, and they were going to be in love with Jesus. Right. And if you've got demonic influence, if you— if you need exorcism, it's not a fair fight. That's right. You've got a hook in you, and it will be difficult. And so they were concerned with the cleansing reality of the— the gospel, to make it a fair fight, so that you could actually begin to heal from demonic influence. Yeah. So that the good news applied to the whole of you, not just your brain. Right.
And you know, I think this is really an interesting topic, because even as we're talking, I'm thinking about our ministry and the people that we've seen who've come to faith, and then maybe they were in the church for a few years and they left. And I just wonder, you know, man— we're kind of seeing this movement of deconstruction among a lot of young adults. And I wonder if a lot of that has to do with it— like, we haven't taken this seriously. Yeah. There are hooks that cause offense. They're stumbling blocks. Yeah. In the lives of the people— of especially this generation, or previous generation, it doesn't really have to be this one.
But it seems like we are living in this— the cross currents of culture and gospel that are just making those offenses rise to the surface in such a way that, like, you can't ignore them. Yeah. And we're going to talk about this in a future podcast, but the reality is, if you've experienced major trauma, or if you've participated in the occult, or if there is generational stuff that's tracking with you, it's traumatic. I mean, especially trauma— trauma at its root— they say trauma is the complete lack of agency. It's when you're powerless. And I— I believe that trauma at its core is atheistic.
45:28Trauma, Wounds, and the Enemy's Hooks
So what makes trauma trauma is the fact that— that it feels like God didn't care, that he wasn't there, that he didn't— that he doesn't even exist, that it doesn't matter. And if you've got a lot of those incidents in you, in your memories, stacked up in your past, and you've never experienced the healing ministry of the Holy Spirit, bringing that pain to the side of Jesus to be healed at the cross and then receiving from him instead, then you've got this heart-level witness of, God doesn't— didn't show up. God isn't there. God— and that's a real traction for the enemy to play off of. I mean, the enemy loves that kind of thing.
That's just— oh, here's this open wound in your past, of this time where it felt like God didn't care about you. So the next time the enemy comes around and whispers, blatantly, God doesn't care about you— you struggle with your finances, or your kids get sick, or, you know, something in your ongoing life takes place, or he doesn't answer your prayers the way you think— the enemy can build on your previous story of trauma where it felt like God wasn't there and it's unhealed. And those things stacked up against each other— I mean, it takes a Herculean amount of effort to continue to say, yes, I truly believe that God is who he says he is and that he loves me. Yeah.
And I mean, so— it's trauma, it's generational patterns, and sin— it's sin that you've committed that maybe you didn't feel clean— activity, and I think also just patterns of thinking. You know— you know, a big one right now is folks in the church that have had same-sex attraction, who, you know— they just— they feel like they haven't been set free. You know, God has an answer there. They live with pain. They've lived with the anguish of this for a real long time, and then they just sort of give up. Yeah, you know, right. And then— and deconstruct, or decide to live, you know— to basically live according to their desires.
And I think— and we do that with all kinds of things, you know— absolutely— workaholism, perfectionism. I mean, you name it. And that— that draws us from the love of God, that draws us from the experience of his love. And— and the way to curtail that, or nip it in the bud, is to make a part of our discipleship this type of healing prayer, this type of deliverance prayer, that we might be captivated by the love and power of Jesus. So— so the early church, they— they did a lot of this prior to baptism. People were assigned an exorcist. They had to cut ties with their previous pagan, licentious living. I mean, pagan living was— I mean, it was crazy.
I mean, like, it was— I mean, we could get into what paganism entailed, but I mean, it was not— it was not gentle. And it was not— and if the Jewish people, the people of God that Jesus was ministering to, needed deliverance, how much more? Right. Because the law was set up to keep them safe. That's right. Right. Yeah, to keep them from needing deliverance. Right. To protect them from the powers. That's right. Yeah. So we— I mean, do you want to rattle off this sort of list? If you're— if you're a— if you're really curious and you want to do a little early church deep dive, just some places where you can find the sort of vibrant exorcism ministry. Yeah, absolutely.
I— Justin Martyr, he was writing in the 100s— so really early, early, early writer— he references exorcism so casually it suggests just ubiquitous practice. I mean, it's just like an off— he makes offhand comments about exorcism that's happening amongst the early Christians. And Irenaeus, my personal favorite, he's writing— love that guy— in the 100s as well. And he bore witness to the prevalence and efficacy of exorcism in the early Christian communities. And he doesn't offer a qualification other than giftedness and grace regarding its practice. Yeah. So he's not like, I was only— the priest that did this. That's right. He was just like, yeah, everybody's doing it. Yeah. Origen.
He references exorcisms— I love this one. He has one— he tells one story about— they— it sounds like a community was just repeating a passage of Scripture, or singing a hymn or something repetitive, and then a demon just flies out of somebody in the middle of their service. Yeah. And we've seen that too. You were at a Judith MacNutt conference and she just began to speak, and all of a sudden some lady yelled out. Yeah. And she got delivered right there. Yeah. Right. Yeah. The desert fathers are some of my favorite, and this— that there is— this kind of leads out into the, you know, four or five hundreds more.
So you see an extension of some of this activity. But if you're really fascinated by this and you— and you want to do some research— John Cassian, I love how he— he— he describes verbal confession to someone who cares. Verbal confession to your— to your elder, to your— to the leader of your— monastic community. He describes it as a practice where the enemy who has been exposed will certainly no longer find a home in you, as his expulsion is made manifest. Ooh. That's what confession does. Ooh. Wow. That's so good. And that— that was all in the context of intimate Christian community. Yeah. He was teaching. Yeah. He was teaching his people how to be set free.
This was not the pagans out there somewhere. These are the people considered particularly holy, because they'd left their lives in Rome, in wherever— in— in the Roman Empire— and they'd gone out to live in the caves. Right. So— so we look— so we're basically seeing in the early church that there was this season, prior to baptism, of detoxifying— detoxified— of the demonic elements and the— and the pagan influences of the culture from which they were converting. Hippolytus, of course, talks about that. Now— now let's answer this— this question. I would like you to answer this for us all, please. Oh, no. I didn't do it. Possession versus oppression.
Now, is this a useful designation? Because I have heard this from many God-fearing, Bible-believing Christians. I say— well, of course Christians can be oppressed. You know— that— I mean, there's no question about that. But they can't be possessed. Yeah, I've heard some interesting arguments on both sides of this— of this conversation. Where I'm currently landing in myself, just as I am sort of approaching this as a ministry— I do think that there is a way in which the enemy can kind of press in from the outside. You know, like you walk— you walk into a house that's— you know, creepy stuff has been happening there, and you just kind of feel yucky.
Right. So I guess in that sense, you can feel oppressed by the enemy and have it not impact your agency. So I do think there is a category for the enemy that is outside of me, that is somehow still felt. Yes. The enemy that— that I need to resist and he will flee— the enemy that I brush up against, but doesn't have any traction in me. Doesn't trigger. Doesn't trigger anything. That said, beyond that, I don't think that's as helpful as the idea of maybe a spectrum of agency. How much territory does the enemy have in you? So is it— is it just, you know, a little bit of influence?
Or is it such that when the enemy yanks on areas of trauma, he can yank hard enough to change your facial expressions, and to cause you to run into sin rather than away from God, and, you know— can he hijack you to the point where your— your ability to make holy choices, to make choices that are healthy for you, that are good for your community, are really compromised? Like, it's increasingly hard to say no. And I would say that all of that kind of falls under the heading of possession. But it's not possessed like the man among the tombs, like fully possessed. There's no— there's no freedom.
You have no— I mean, even the man among the tombs had enough agency to run toward Jesus instead of away from Jesus. But this guy couldn't live in community. He couldn't keep his clothes on. He was cutting himself. He was— he was— he couldn't be chained. He had supernatural strength. I mean, this— he lived in a haunted, like— a place that would have been considered— he's living in the tombs. He's living in a graveyard. I mean, this is a really rough situation. But do we have demonic beings that have enough influence in— in us, such that when they yank on that place of wounding, when they— it's like a— it's like a fish hook.
Have you imagined them being sort of a fish hook of the enemy in an area of trauma in you? For unbelief— or unbelief, or sin, or Masonic ties. Yeah, absolutely. Occult activity. Right. When the enemy wants to make you move in a certain direction, he can yank on that area. And to be possessed is this idea that your agency is compromised. Yes. That there's something in you messing with your ability to think clearly, to make good decisions, to— Now, I loved— there's a Christian minister that I ministered with once, and he said, you know, you can't counsel out a demon, and you can't drive out the flesh. So there's this idea that some of us want to just call everything possession and exorcism.
So we don't have to grow up in holy love. Like, every time it's hard for me to say no, that means it's a demon. No, that's not what I'm saying at all. I don't think that that is a fair assessment. I think sometimes we punk out and, oh, like, the devil made me do it, but it's really just your flesh. When it's really just, man, you need to grow. Yeah. You need to flex that— that will, and put yourself in the way of emotional maturity. Yeah. But I— beyond that, I don't think it's a real super helpful designation. I think that we need to be set free from the hooks that the enemy has placed in us that yank us from place to place.
And if there are enough of those hooks, and we've given way to it enough, or— we suffered early in life enough that there was just no agency and we were victimized and things were really hard— I think that the better language for that is actually possession, in the sense that our agency is compromised. It's hard to say no. So it's influence? Yeah, sure. We can call it a spectrum of influence or agency. Okay, all right. I like that. I like the focusing on the agency being compromised. Yeah, and that looks like— well, I think that that could also look like— taking a marriage relationship, or a parent and their children.
If someone regularly rages out on their spouse or their children because they have such a short fuse or a trigger, and then they're constantly coming back, and maybe they're apologizing— maybe they're not— this is just an example that I've seen— oftentimes, that's the result of some pretty significant self-hatred that someone might have. Or maybe their agency was compromised. There was some trauma in their past, and it's self-protection. And the enemy— actual demons are capitalizing on that pain and pushing someone toward abusive behavior or raging out.
And so a healing prayer or deliverance might look like them revisiting that trauma, or that pain where they didn't feel like they had agency, that makes them want to self-protect. And so that— that trigger ceases to be a hair trigger. Yeah, healing. Yeah, yeah. Healing. But they revisit that, and a lot of times something flies out— off. Yeah, yeah, I would say— out. I mean, my experience has consistently been something's kind of got its talons in someone, or it, you know, is infiltrating bodies. Yes. You have a physical body, and the enemy looks to infiltrate your body and mess with stuff from there. It's kind of a parasite.
Satan and his demons are always looking for ways to control and influence agency. We talk a lot about the expanding influence of the kingdom of heaven, that the increase of the government of God and his peace will have no end. That's Isaiah 9, right? The increase of his government will have no end. And I believe that his government over each of us is currently likely incomplete. And you know this because you still sin. We as disciples of Jesus look to align ourselves increasingly with the kingdom of Jesus, being ambassadors of the kingdom of heaven in the world, living as children of the light, etc.
And we believe that this comes from intimacy with Jesus, being rooted in our identity in him and learning to obey his commands— like Matthew 28— which always aligns with his good rule of love. So this is why we practice spiritual disciplines. That's why we practice saying the hours. There are territories in us, like you were just talking about— trauma, old traumas that are still not aligned with the government and the peace of Jesus. If this wasn't true, you probably wouldn't sin. At least not as often. And sin is something we do, but it's not a fair fight. Satan is always looking to increase his own territory.
And so there are specifically places in us that are particularly susceptible to his influence. Some of these are a little more obvious, like occult activity, intentional or habitual sin. And some of them just seem unfair, like trauma or generational trauma that's been passed down. Areas of susceptibility that the enemy capitalizes on to make sinning more appealing, to make safety seem further away, to make peace inaccessible, and to prevent the government of Jesus from being actualized in those areas of our lives. Yeah, so good. That's good. What's our call to action? Well, I was hoping you'd give us the call to action. I thought we agreed you were going to do it. Oh, I'm going to do it.
60:22An Invitation to Get Free
I think so. You should definitely do it. All right. Well, first of all, we really— you're a bit of a galvanizer. I'm a galvanizer. Ooh, okay. That's good. So I think that— so the call to action is this. If you want to learn more about healing and deliverance— but deliverance in particular— we really recommend a book that I think is a gold standard for deliverance, written by Neal Lozano. It's called Unbound. Yeah, it's a great book. It is— very pastoral. Very pastoral. Scriptural. It comes— he's a practitioner. He's been doing this for decades. And we have used his material before. So Unbound, Neal Lozano— we'll put a link in the notes for you to look at that.
Hopefully, buy that book, because we just— we think it's absolutely important. If you want to see in your own discipleship, or in your disciple-making, more people get free, that means that we've got to invest in this a little bit. And we just really want to encourage you to invest in it, just by reading a book and meditating on it. Start there. The next thing that we want you to do— so buy that book. The next thing is, learn how to do this stuff. Yeah. Learn how to do this. The work of exorcism in the New Testament is the work for which the disciples were given authority and power by Jesus in the context of their initial calling. Yes.
Like, it's presented as one of only three major assignments that Jesus gives to his disciples, along with healing and preaching the message of the kingdom. That's right. Yeah. And those of you who are listening who are disciples and followers of Jesus, you are under obligation. You are obliged to heed the call of the master and to learn how to drive out demons and heal the sick. Wow. That's a powerful statement. That's bold. Well, the last I read, none of that has changed. You know— I mean, there's no scriptural support for, now that we have the canon of Scripture, we no longer need this ministry. It's what Jesus sent his disciples out to do. Right. And I have to tell you— that's sobering.
We have been doing this for 15 years. And we have seen people who are in bondage for 30, 40, 50 years get set free. We've seen drug addicts get set free. We've seen people who struggle with same-sex attraction get set free. We've seen people that are in bondage to fear and to anxiety and depression— we've seen them get set free. And people whose physical illnesses and pain were rooted in the demonic— be healed. That's right. We've seen physical healings, mental and emotional healings. This is just normal Christianity, guys. This is normal Christianity. That's right. And if you see someone that's afflicted, or you see someone that's having a hard time and they're in pain— guess what?
They're a candidate for healing. And guess what? So are you. Yes. So are you. We are cultivating communities that steward the collision between heaven and earth, that steward the kingdom of heaven, that are conduits of the breaking in of the government of Jesus— that will have no end, of his government and his peace there will be no end. Right. The increase. So all of us who claim the name of Jesus, who are followers of Jesus— I mean, we need to follow him. Right. Means that we need to do what he does. And he said, as the Father has sent me, so I send you. And become a learner. Become a curious learner— that you don't— you don't have to go do crazy stuff.
You don't have to go Rambo. We also actually offer practical, hands-on, entry-level teaching. Yes, for deliverance ministry. That's right. So if you go to the website, we have conferences called EncounterEquip, where we will begin the conversation and even give you the opportunity to begin to pray for things like deliverance. That's right. And just with a group of people that are hungry and curious. It's a safe environment.
We teach really good policies, rooted in love— kind of standards for, you know, how we interact with one another even in that context. It's a really safe environment to step out a little bit and learn a little bit more and actually begin to pray. That's right. And if you go to an encounter weekend and you receive prayer ministry, and you go to an EncounterEquip prayer ministry training, you can come minister with us these weekends and grow in deliverance ministry. The disciples had to grow. There were things they couldn't drive out. Yeah, I bet it was really messy when they first started doing this.
Yeah, you betcha. And we will coach you— we will coach you as well in small groups, to learn how to do this and, you know, implement it in your ministry on a small or large level. We can do that as well. All we know is that we want to see the body of Christ released into this kind of mission and ministry that ministers to the whole person. All right, so that's your call to action. Go find out what events are coming up and come to one of the events to get trained, and buy that Unbound book. Peace. Thank you for joining us on this episode of Between Heaven and Earth. We hope that you are stirred to curiosity and courage as we explored bringing heaven and earth together right where you are. Remember, you're not alone on this journey. We're here to support you in understanding what the Spirit of God is doing in your life, and responding in obedience to his good leadership. If you enjoyed today's conversation, please take a moment to like, share, subscribe, and leave a review. We'd love to hear from you. Share your thoughts and questions with us on our Facebook page, or by email— podcast@encounterculturene.com. Your support helps us reach more people who are eager to join Jesus in his great project of restoration. Also check out our website, encounterculturene.com, for upcoming events and equipping opportunities for you and your church. Until next time, may you find joy living in between heaven and earth, and the courage to bring them together wherever you go.